Canadian Interviewer, Nardwuar, was interviewing some guy named Jay-Z when a piece of art caught my attention. Nardwuar brought out a poster, an amazing poster seen above, and Jay-Z was in awe. This poster featured a head shot of every MC you could think of (including some soul pioneers and important figures) and even had a little tidbit about each artist on the backside. To date, it has blown the socks off of guys like Kangol Kid, NYOIL, Dana Dane, and your boy, Deez. In fact, it impressed me so much that I had to seek out the creator, Kagan McLeod, who in my luck, lives in Toronto. KevinNottingham.com is about so much more than the music. Sure, the music is up close and primary, but, it is artwork like Kagan’s that makes the culture so special and gives it a purpose. We felt that it was important to cover a piece of art that Hip Hop fans reading the interview could appreciate and undoubtedly will want to buy. I got a chance to kick it with Kagan at Toronto’s Hip Hop Karaoke and watch him do his best Jaz-O impression on stage before we kicked into interview mode. There was plenty to talk about ranging from his controversial encounter with Eric B, kicking it on stage with Masta Ace, missing some of the old and new, the story behind the piece, and, because it’s what we do, sampling.
SD: Kagan, it was a pleasure to see you rip a microphone. You seemed focused and in the zone! Hidden talents, man. Of course, this is the token intro part: tell everyone who you are, what you do, why you are here, and anything else you think would be beneficial.
KM: Thanks Sean. I’m an illustrator working mostly for newspapers and magazines in the United States and Canada. I do regular work for Entertainment Weekly, Newsweek, Portfolio and Men’s Health and have done illustrations for GQ, New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. I dabble in comics too, and I like rap.
SD: Thank you for my copies of your famous poster, I’ll be sure to frame them. It does seem like clever (indirect) marketing though. Do you think it forces people to buy two copies? I don’t feel as if you are doing justice to the piece if one side is plastered up against the wall. I feel like I’d need a spinning frame or something [laughs].
KM: You’re right – I wanted it to be something in between a cheap poster and an artist’s print. At $25 you can’t complain about the price for the art and amount of information you’re getting, so yeah, there’s the option to buy two copies. The back of the poster is meant to be a legend to the front – I got the idea when I started working the whole thing out. The front is consistent, with each artist shown as equals with the rest, regardless of levels of fame. The back acts as a who’s who and provides the most basic amount of context that would fit in the space I had.
SD: Funny you mentioned “shown as equals” because Masta Ace watched YOU kick one of the greatest verses of all time with G Rap’s and BDK’s time on ÒSymphony.Ó He was on the sidelines [laughs]. You had top billing over one of the greatest to touch the mic man, how’d that feel? Did he see the poster?
KM: You’re talking about the Hip Hop Karoake anniversary last year – Masta Ace was host. My buddy Gersh and I wanted to do “The Symphony,” and the next thing we knew, Ace had said he would do his verse with us. It was definitely intimidating, to impersonate G Rap and Kane in front of someone who recorded with them. But it’s still karaoke so it’s meant to be just for fun. It is, however, the best way to get to be a rapper without any of the work – you already know the songs and the audience already likes them! But yeah, I was able to give him a copy of the poster to take home with him.
SD: The reason why I bring this up is because, it is so freaking evident that you love hip hop. And it’s amazing to see the legends for 10 minutes be in awe. This is a reaction you must get anytime you show the poster to an artist, that moment of awe; that moment of them on the side of the stage watching you do your thing. Would you agree? After experiencing what it was like to be on stage (even if it was for fun) like that, can you bridge the gap between your piece of art and the art of rhyme?
KM: As I was doing the poster I thought some of the people on it would see it, but I definitely couldn’t see myself presenting it to any of them! It is a great feeling, not only to meet people who you’ve listened to for half your life, but to have them compliment you! Of course I would second guess myself as to how I put the history down, I hadn’t lived IN it, but I absorbed it from far away. I was reassured by UTFO’s Kangol Kid, that it is what it is, one artist’s interpretation. It reminds me of this Ras Kass line “Now I’m a rap fan who never saw Bam rock a park in the Bronx but I still snap skulls after dark!”
As far as rapping vs. art — they’re both forms of communication that can provoke a strong reaction. But it takes a different type of person to do each well.
SD: What do you think the biggest difference is between the rapper and the artist?
KM: I found when meeting rappers that they have a natural cadence and outgoingness that an artist doesn’t need to do their thing. I could never be as comfortable on camera as some of these guys.
SD: By now, people have hopefully taken a moment to acknowledge the featured piece. We’ll talk about that one for now. Let’s start from the ground up though man; what was the process? How did it start? How did it end and when did you know that you were finished? How long did it take?
KM: I started by making a list of everyone I thought should be on it, then I started putting them in order mostly based on when their first album came out. A lot of people had singles out way before albums, but I tried to stick to my criteria. From reading magazines and watching Rap City back in the day I had a pretty good clue as to who was important but still had to do some research, especially for the old school. Everything always opened up a new door, and I would always find someone new to add in even after I started drawing. The most current stuff was difficult as well; I didn’t want to make the mistake of putting anyone on who was a flash in the pan. I thought Lupe was a good person to end it on. He’s probably the newest rapper that I really like.
SD: At what point of your career did you do this? Did you feel like it was a necessary piece to add to your resume, or was this more about the love of hip hop?
KM: I’ve been working professionally for 9 years, and finished the piece last year.
It was definitely more for fun than career opportunities. I knew it would be cool because the most hardcore heads would react to it (they always try to stump me with someone who’s not on there) and casual fans would also like it and hopefully learn something. I’m interested in the history, which comes from being interested in sampling – whether it’s finding the Funky Drummer or who first said that high pitched “Oh my god!”.
I tried to get it all on one piece of paper. Hardcore fans are very nerdy about rap, so whether they praise this or have beefs with it, I’m glad they’re talking about it.
I did manage to get the piece into the American Illustration annual this year, so it definitely isn’t hurting my career.
SD: We’ll talk more about sampling in just a second, but, because this was done for fun, do you think anyone could do this piece? By that, I mean do you think non-artistic people, such as myself, could do their own version of this, and present it to the people you have and get the same response? Be honest. Did you put a ton of emphasis on the actual drawings of the artists, or did you do just enough to get the gist of it and move on?
KM: The drawing style is a matter of taste, I guess. I wanted to keep the drawings loose, (I freestyled them without pencil, and if the likeness was off I would adjust it in photoshop), a style that definitely takes some practice. I think if I did them photorealistically I would a) kill myself doing them, and b) have something without any personality. We could definitely critique the individual drawings all day but I left each one when I was satisfied with it and that’s what it is.
And of course anyone can give it a go, but I did it first!
SD: What was the hardest part of this poster in Pre-development, during the whole process, and the post finished piece? Was there ever a time you just wanted to quit?
KM: It took longer than I thought it would (about 6 months for each side) but as the space filled up, imagining the final [piece] kept me going. The hardest part was definitely finding new (old) artists all the time and trying to find a space to squeeze them in. Maybe I’d hear a shout out on a later record to an earlier pioneer I’d never heard of, and then look him up.
SD: Speaking of the older artist and getting back to something you mentioned earlier, samples, one thing KevinNottingham.com heads will love are your two pieces devoted to the classic and frequently sampled tracks, “Sing a Song” by Sly & the Family Stone, and “Atomic Dog” by George Clinton. These seem just as difficult to produce as the History of Rap piece; can you explain the process of these?
KM: Like I said, sampling has always been interesting to me and I picked a few tracks that I could pick apart and show visually who took what and what for. It was originally for a graffiti art show called Heroes and Icons and I figured this could be appropriate. I did a lot of infographics work when I got out of school, plus some comic books, so this kind of words-and-pictures thing came up as a way to illustrate something non-visual like music.
SD: Where’d the idea for the Equalization Soundwaves come from? Are they accurate? Why these?
KM: The soundwaves are accurate, traced from screengrabs of the songs. I chose these songs because they were used so many times and chopped into so many other classics. The relationship between the old stuff and new stuff is great!
SD: We are ALL about the blending of old and new. It’s evident, then, that you do have an appreciation for the samples. If you could do one Issac Hayes joint, which one would you do? What about James Brown? Do you have a vision for these?
KM: I wanted to do 10 but only got three done. For the rest I would have done a Bob James one; “Nautilus,” something Roy Ayers, maybe “Everybody Loves the Sunshine” or We Live In Brooklyn.” Definitely Isaac Hayes’ “Walk on By” or something like that. “Funky Drummer” for James Brown. The Meters,”Handclapping Song.” Just the most classic of classics.
SD: This should cause a good discussion with the readers. But, referring back to the Sly and Clinton pieces, both of those are almost like one large puzzle. I found my eye traveling all over the place. Did you want this to happen, an unsettling eye? There’s tons to look at, including the album art work within the art work and the text. Would you consider these two pieces in particular more jam packed than your History of Rap piece?
KM: I definitely think there’s more to digest in the History of Rap, but the idea for these pieces is an intro about the original song, an illustration of the band, and a timeline of the song and who sampled what parts. Hope it wasn’t too confusing!
SD: Going back to the History of Rap, you seemed to have the very touchy and dangerous responsibility of choosing what picture you’d choose to portray the artist as. Dana Dane’s picture is, as he claimed, probably the only time you’ll see me without a Kangol hat on. Are you worried that some artists make take offense to what they look like? What picture was the most risky? Most difficult one to draw? How controversial did you consider getting, for example: Slick Rick without the eye patch, Chuck D without a hat, numerous artists without a Kangol?
KM: For the most part I tried to illustrate the artists how they were when they first came out. But with Dana Dane I used reference from his second album for some reason, where he was shown without a Kangol. I don’t think any of the artists would be embarrassed by their portrayal with a certain style – be it a jheri curl, an afro or lines in the eyebrows – it’s a moment in time, that’s how it was. I didn’t think I was being controversial at all with my choices.
SD: What was your goal in choosing a 1989 Pos and Tru as opposed to a mid-to-late 90’s De La Soul? Using them as reference, I mean to ask, why did you choose a particular picture from the past or present to depict a particular artist? It’s pretty refreshing (and kind of funny too) to see pictures of Bo$ with her toque and Busta’s short and soon to be dreaded hair. But, even with reference to Busta, why that one, the Leaders of the New School one and not the more familiar dreaded dude?
KM: It was a tough call, especially when so many people’s iconic looks had morphed over the years. But the piece being in chronological order would have looked weird if De La were amongst all of their ‘89 contemporaries with ‘94 haircuts. Same with Busta next to the Leaders. And Tupac in Digital Underground – I gave him the Juice haircut even though the backwards bandana is the more iconic look. NWA’s got to go together, so Ice Cube’s got to have the jheri curls! I drew Lil’ Wayne from an old Hot Boyz picture and I don’t even think I had any idea how famous he was becoming. He’s almost unrecognizable without the tattoos and stuff.
SD: The jheri curl is soooo necessary though. It should be mentioned that there aren’t DJ’s on the poster. It’s a little bittersweet because a guy like DJ Premier isn’t on it, but Pete Rock, a guy who rapped (most likely someone else’s lyrics) but wasn’t really known for that, is. Surely, guys like DJ Premier, Marley Marl, and Easy Mo Bee deserve a place on here more so than some of the MC’s, would you agree?
KM: Absolutely — if this were a hip hop poster. But the goal for this one was rap, one element of hip hop’s four. I do make the clarification in the first bit of text on the back. It was tough to cut out the DJs, especially the most famous ones, but it also would have doubled the poster size to include them all. It was another way for me to narrow the project down, and include more obscure rappers. I’m still having a hard time finding a track that Pretty Lou from the Lost Boyz raps onÉ but he’s listed as a vocalist. Anyway, most of the DJs get mentioned on the back of the poster, regardless.
SD: To further emphasize the DJ, we recently interviewed DJ K.O. When asked about the role of the DJ, he replied, “[DJ's] are the backbone of the industry.” Do you think you are conveying a special importance on the MC and kind of shun the importance of the DJ with the piece? You walk a fine line when you include a lot of soul influences and even Muhammad Ali, but not DJ’s. What has that response been?
KM: I don’t mean to shun anyone; it’s just focusing on one element. The first few rows aren’t meant to be rap’s influences, it is rap’s forefathers. James Brown is on this piece because he rapped (check King Heroin), not because he’s heavily sampled. Muhammad Ali is on it because he rapped in interviews before fights. Pete Rock had solo tracks (even if they were written by Grand Puba) so he definitely has a voice in rap. De La’s Maseo could have been on there too. Basically, I simplified it so I could specifically show ‘rap’ in greater detail.
SD: You told me earlier that you caught some flack from Eric B. Tell us about that.
KM: Apparently he and Chuck Chillout were not impressed that they weren’t included, but didn’t take the time to actually look at the poster. I believe he said that “if [he] wasn’t on it, then [I] don’t know anything about hip hop.” If there was a list of the greatest boxers, I wouldn’t expect to see Don King on it, even though he’s got a lot to do with some of the greatest boxers. So it’s unfortunate that Eric B felt that he was left out, but that wasn’t meant to be the case.
SD: Do you plan on doing one with strictly DJ’s and Producers on it? That could be very dope; I certainly will put that in the suggestion box.
KM: I agree, that would be another great project. Among the DJs, there’s definitely a great amount of stand out personalities, but for the most part they aren’t as recognizable. If DJs are the backbone, then MCs are the face. For that reason, rappers make more sense for a poster like this; they’re known for being in the forefront, their personalities and character. The same is true for DJs, b-boys and writers, but in a different way. It’s more about what they can do with their hands, bodies or art. MCs are the ones that need the charisma to control the crowd – a DJ does it with music.
It’s like the relationship between actors and directors – they need each other and the public loves their combined efforts, but it’s the actors who generally get the fame.
Like Mister Cee told Kane “I’m always in the background, supplying the sound, but my props is yet to be found!”
SD: Great analogy with cinema. How do you feel about this poster serving as an educative tool for young and old alike? I feel as if I know my hip hop quite well, but there are at least 7 names on this list that I’ve never heard of or been familiar with. Do you see this poster, 5-10 years from now, hanging up in a classroom surrounded by kids talking hip hop? Isn’t that the dream life though [laughs]. I feel that the hip hop world owes you a huge thank you because something like this can easily make that push for some Hip Hop Classroom talk.
KM: Wow, that’s definitely nice to hear. I’m curious, which 7 names?
SD: [laughs] Damn. Okay. Rammellzee, a lot of the early 80 crews I don’t know each MC by name, Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde, Cheryl the Pearl, Def Jef, and I think it ends there. But then, you Google a lot of these cats then you are like, “ohhhh yeah.” But, moving on.
KM: [laughs] After talking with a number of people I think “A History of Rap” would have been better than “The History of Rap.” There’s so many ways and directions you can go with something like this, and I tried to be as neutral as I could with the info. But I definitely have no place saying this is the definitive history, nor did I mean to give that impression. In any case, to give people a springboard for discussion or further research is definitely what I hoped for. So if I make that happen somewhere in the world then I’m happy.
SD: Well, I mean, it’s evident that you made me, a hip hop writer, go to the internet and look up a thing or two. Before we make this interview ridiculously long, we’ll cut it here. Any last words to say?
KM: Yes, sorry to Lovebug Starski for not including you on the poster! I knew you DJ’ed, but didn’t find out about your rap recordings until the poster was printed. My other biggest regret is Da Bush Babees, one of my favourite rap groups who weren’t included as an oversight.
Also, I’ve got a 400-page martial arts-themed comic called Infinite Kung Fu coming out next year from Top Shelf Comics – the first parts are online here!
SD: Really appreciate your time and this interview bro. It’s a pleasure to know you and your pieces of art. They are more than welcome in this world of hip hop.
KM: I appreciate talking with you guys as well, thanks!
Here are some links that you can get at Kagan at, buy the poster, talk about the poster, etc. Enjoy!
You can buy the poster at any of the following online retailers:
{ 13 comments… read them below or add one }
Great Post….
Hip-Hop is more than just music….
Thanx for the interview…this jus’ shows how this site is changing the game of what a hip-hop site is suppose to be about covering everything about the music & lifestyle we love called “HIP-HOP”….I definitely will be coppin’ that poster had have it up in my office.
Sean Deez good looking out on this and thanx for sharing you luv of the art form.
Awesome work Kagan. This is the greatest thing I’ve laid my eyes on since the Maxim with Eva Mendes.
Deez stays slaying the hip hop journalism game. we can’t be stopped.
I’ve been meaning to cop this for a while, too. It’d be the 4th poster in my room with 2pac on it lol
Great post. Man, I KNEW I should be going to more of these Hip Hip Karaoke jams in the T-Dot. I’m on the Facebook group, but I always puss out in going. One day I’ll get up there and rock some EPMD.
Well done. TIHH is doing some great work.
Wow. great piece of journalism.
word, the comments are bringing a smile to my face people.
Much love to K for delivering this golden piece. I didn’t even “find” it, I was just the one presenting a lot of it. And don’t sleep on the questions either, some great shit in there, specially regarding Eric B!
dope interview..dude puts it down on the illustration tip..the poster is sick
This guy is a sick artist and has been since we were kids. It’s truly amazing to see how far he has come since the days of drawing war scenes in 4th grade! Keep it up and keep it real!
he is easily in my top 5 “music nerds” list – kagan’s rap history repository is vast. if you’re ever at an HHK and wonder which guy he is … he’s more then likely the guy doing the most obscure song of the night!
Yo Kagan is made talented with the verse game and his art game. He’s going places yo. Hey I have to say that this is one of the most interesting and thought provoking interviews I have seen in a while. Hey Alyse, you did your thing!!!!
So plenty of controversy about Kagan’s claim to “do it first” came about on this message board/website: http://www.thickjawns.com/the_jumpoff/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=874
Frankly, I can’t agree with what a lot of those cats are saying. Sure, it has been done before, but to this magnatude? To have nearly 500 rappers on a poster AND a quick history lesson on the back? I mean the interview states it all too, its not like he was going for the detail that some of these other posters have, but he got the job done. This, is literally an educational tool, some of the other posters like this, really aren’t.
I do think Kagan was extremely original in the fact that he wanted to get so many, even the most obscure rappers on this (albeit, I just found out he missed 2 pretty important southern ones!), and to compare a lot of more “detailed” works to this isn’t fair, because sure, they are more detailed, but they aren’t having as many rappers on it.
Do I think Kagan “Did it First?” No
Do I think Kagan did THIS first? Yes.
It should also be mentioned that the latter pages of that topic are now discussing the existence of God (wtf)…
but still, there are some examples of “contending artwork” there.
I urge everyone to READ the interview before commenting though
http://www.okayplayer.com/interviews/latest-interviews/kagan-mcleod_s-%22history-of-rap%22-200903267658/
WORD UP